They tend to live in a world were the door only swings one way. Even a pagan henotheist acknowledged gods other than their own, though focused their devotion on their god of choice. This scepticism about the sincerity and even the authenticity of Constantine’s conversion and the questioning of his motives is at least in part due to a modern difficulty in grasping ancient approaches to belief, though it is also further evidence of how atheism in the English-speaking world is firmly rooted in stolidly Protestant views of history. And people who reject the third claim can apply historical analysis to the second claim. But yeah, what happened with Taleb? We don’t have the first copy” We don’t have copies of the copy. Is this another example of New Atheist pseudo-history? So do Young Earth Creationists when complaining about “darwinism”. Scholars outside the Seminar – especially Vermes, Fredriksen, Sanders, Allison and Ehrman – have rejected this and continue to see Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet. And I’m afraid I find the scholarship of people like Wallace difficult to take seriously for the same reason I feel that way about the Mythicists – both start with their conclusions and then try to find a way through the evidence that leads them back to that assumed end point. Summary. Yes, he deals with the various attempted imperial restrictions on sacrifice and public (and publically-funded) pagan worship extensively. I’ve heard this “there are two Bart Ehrmans” stuff from apologists in the past, along with the claim his popular works are sensationalist and unuanced and his academic works somehow contradict them. Goodreads helps you keep track of books you want to read. Wallace teaches at the Dallas Theological Seminary, an institution that requires its faculty to reaffirm its “doctrinal statement” each year. I've returned the book, so I don't have an example at hand, but I know that I winced through the ancient period with Stark. And I think we can come to that view by using historical analysis or we can come to that view by philosophical analysis. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “We are not makers of history. Look at me admitting my religious beliefs might trump historical evidence as to my ultimate opinion! These were the educated administrative elite who kept the Empire running, and after the reforms of Diocletian there were even more administrators than ever, given the institution of the diocesan system designed to reduce the local power of provincial governors by breaking the Empire into smaller administrative units. This brings us to my second point, which is that I think the ethical/moral behaviour is more important. If one does not have the original, then it is impossible to ascertain how far removed that particular copy really is. But he also makes an affirmation that the original is lost. So in that sense it felt like a Stark compendium rather than a new book. Or the Inquisition? Now the actual reasoning may be one that many Christians would accept. It is impossible to say if her paganism and pagan/Christian animus wasn’t a factor at all, but there is very little evidence – other than, as you say, Orestes being called a “pagan” as a slur – to sustain the idea that it was a major element in what seems to have been a political squabble. Several brief reigning emperors followed, all of them favorable to Christianity (although some of them Arian) until, in 379, the Roman throne passed to Theodosius I. I really do like Ehrman otherwise. But, refreshingly, he also avoids the opposite mistake of misty-eyed romanticisation of the Classical past and corresponding demonisation of the Christians, found in Nixey and the ranters. Please stop repeating this fundamentalist Christian apologist lie. I tend to think you don’t because you have a whole website that is drawing a similar distinction. They are just not s. The title also could be, a grumpy old man's guide to Christianity. This “two Ehrmans” stuff is at best wrongheaded and at worst a weak slur. So I would withhold judgment on that until I see it’s use in action. Talk about exercising futility! He now admits that from the very earliest recorded history, indeed even earlier than that, even possibly their very first year, Christians regarded Jesus as a pre-existent divine being. The answer is either yes or no, and it can’t be both. Furthermore, it is interesting to learn how the first-century fragment of Mark controversy arose in the first place. I think this discussion has reached its natural end. Rather, as far as I understand it (though I might be misunderstanding), his argument is simply that a historian qua historian cannot conclude that the historical evidence establishes that a miracle occurred. After all, by Ehrman’s own calculations, the number of Christians in the Empire went from 3.5-4 million in 312 AD to a whole 25-35 million by the end of the fourth century. As his military and political success continued, he continued to attribute it to the favour of this god. He arrives at the sensible conclusion that Constantine did indeed have a vision or dream, or perhaps several of them, and that it was his interpretation of them that changed, moving from an idea that he should devote himself to Sol Invictus to the idea that Sol Invictus and the god of the Christians were one and the same and finally to a more orthodox grasp of the Christian God. Now I don’t think it too difficult, that , if Ehrman does not start on solid ground from the outset of his talk, then he can’t finish on solid ground either. So when Tim says he hears evangelicals making comments regarding the Two Bart’s and presses them for specifics, he is correct in demanding evidence for their claim. The author has classified himself as a cultural christian (small c), and he has been criticized by writers with conservative Christian beliefs. While I know dispelling myths sells books, there are times when I think this model takes too much of the front seat and causes the driver to veer off the pavement, or in this case, the writer begins. But I was told none of this. Is parsimony a legitimate historical criteria? Following a tour of duty in the U.S. Army, he received his PhD from the University of California, Berkeley, where he held appointments as a research sociologist at the Survey Research Center and at the Center for the Study of Law and Society. I’ve read all of Ehrman’s books. Even if the same person came to develop a special personal devotion to a single god, say Apollo, this did not mean he denied the existence of other gods, discouraged his family or neighbours from worshipping them or refused to offer incense to some other deity if invited to do so. To simply answer your question regarding Bart’s proposed dual nature, it boils down to money. In recent decades, as traditional Christian denominations have become more liberal and less demanding they have lost members, whereas relative new, stricter, more demanding denominations are gaining in membership. Two things have tended to put me off. I wish you would engage in the argument rather than ad hominem. There is no avoiding Constantine when tackling this subject, and Ehrman’s analysis rightly brackets his story with a detailed analysis of the conversion of Constantine and then with a dissection of its impact. Quoted Ehrman simply because I wanted to present his perspective on this topic because it tends to rely on. Say much of anything different. ’ and I guarantee you will, actually originate with the philosophical of! War eventually Erhman says there he deserved it our reasoning is not to say that different miracle claims historical suddenly. 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